Just some not so random questions I'd like to ask Thomas Jay Oord now that I've finished reading "The Uncontrolling Love of God"...
On page 162, you say "God necessarily loves, but God freely chooses how to love in each emerging moment." My question is, if God necessarily loves, isn't God also obligated to love in a particular way each emerging moment? Is God REALLY free to choose HOW to love?
In your section on the variations of love (165-166), I didn't see much room given to the idea of God's disciplinary love. How do concepts such as divine discipline and wrath fit into your thinking (personally, I think of divine wrath as God simply accepting our relational withdraw, which we then suffer the consequences of)?
Greg Boyd attributes a lot of the non-cooperation (evil) with God in the world to the demonic realm... but your book barely mentions the demonic at all. Do you think Boyd is wrong in his emphasis?
You talk about how God's existence as Spirit is, in some sense, limiting (no 'body' with which to physically act). But besides the incarnation, we also seem to have examples of theophanies in Scripture. Do you reject Old Testament theophanies?
I felt your final chapter (on miracles) was leading toward a guilt-inducing conclusion (if miracles don't happen, it's because we aren't cooperating correctly with God), but then you concluded that your view was antagonistic toward this sort of guilt (pg. 213). Overall, I felt the final chapter was the only chapter that didn't clearly communicate your position (I'm still fuzzy). Do you plan to write more on miracles in the future?
5 comments:
Matthew,
Thanks for your good questions arising from your reading of The Uncontrolling Love of God. I'll past your questions and offer response below...
Matthew: On page 162, you say "God necessarily loves, but God freely chooses how to love in each emerging moment." My question is, if God necessarily loves, isn't God also obligated to love in a particular way each emerging moment? Is God REALLY free to choose HOW to love?
TOM: Good question. If the future were closed or God timeless, a necessarily loving God wouldn't have any freedom. Atheist philosopher William Rowe has written a book making this argument, and it applies to traditional views of God. I'm an open theist, however, so the God I describe cannot know the future. Consequently, God chooses among a set of options that are loving. But God cannot know with certainity which option will be most loving. So God freely chooses among options.
Matthew: In your section on the variations of love (165-166), I didn't see much room given to the idea of God's disciplinary love. How do concepts such as divine discipline and wrath fit into your thinking (personally, I think of divine wrath as God simply accepting our relational withdraw, which we then suffer the consequences of)?
TOM: I think what we and biblical writers call divine wrath is actually the natural negative consequences that come from choosing something other than the loving best God calls us to. God can be and does get angry. And God sometimes calls us to do things that are difficult. But I don't think God ever does evil to us as punishment for sin.
Matthew: Greg Boyd attributes a lot of the non-cooperation (evil) with God in the world to the demonic realm... but your book barely mentions the demonic at all. Do you think Boyd is wrong in his emphasis?
TOM: I'm neutral on the existence of demons. My basic theology works if demons exist or they do not. You're right that Greg puts much more emphasis on them than I do.
Matthew: You talk about how God's existence as Spirit is, in some sense, limiting (no 'body' with which to physically act). But besides the incarnation, we also seem to have examples of theophanies in Scripture. Do you reject Old Testament theophanies?
TOM: I think creatures can reflect God, but I don't think they become divine.
Matthew: I felt your final chapter (on miracles) was leading toward a guilt-inducing conclusion (if miracles don't happen, it's because we aren't cooperating correctly with God), but then you concluded that your view was antagonistic toward this sort of guilt (pg. 213).
TOM: I'm happy that you see I reject this guilt-inducing argument!
Matthew: Overall, I felt the final chapter was the only chapter that didn't clearly communicate your position (I'm still fuzzy). Do you plan to write more on miracles in the future?
TOM: I might write more on miracles. I probably should have expanded that chapter into several. But you're right that the issue requires more than I devoted in this one chapter.
Thanks very much for your responses Dr. Oord. They are helpful.
I think you may have misunderstood my 1st question though. I know you are an open theist. I am as well. My question was... If God is bound to act by His loving nature, doesn't that also bind him to act in a specific way in every situation?
Your point seems to have been that God is bound to love, but free to choose how to express that love. But I'm wondering in what sense God can be free to choose how to express love in a given situation. Isn't He bound to express it in the perfect way for that context?
If my question still doesn't make sense, feel free to disregard it. It's a nitty gritty detail :)
Thanks for your additional question. I think I understood what you were getting at, but my answer wasn't very clear.
Because the future is open, God cannot know with certainty what free creatures will do and chance events will occur. Consequently, God cannot know with absolute certainty which option in the present will be most effective in promoting overall well-being. God will always choose among loving options, but God cannot know which single option is the most loving, given all of the variables. So God chooses Among options in each moment, not knowing with certainty whether that choice will have the most beneficial results, but not able to choose options outside those that could potentially promote overall well-being in the future.
I hope that helps.
Tom
thanks! really enjoyed the book
I'm happy to hear that you liked the book. Would you be interested in participating in the Uncontrolling Love project? It amounts to writing a 1,000-word essay on some theme in the book. That essay will go on the website and later in a book. Here's the website address: uncontrollinglove.com Send me an email if you're interested: tjoord@nnu.edu
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